S8E1: Making the Positive Case for DEI in Higher Education

Stephanie Helms Pickett [00:00 – 00:53] – This idea about inclusion, it’s tricky because we want people to feel included. We want them to feel a sense of connectedness, a sense of belongingness. Where the tricky piece comes in is who gets to dictate what that is. So we don’t want to have included where I get to determine, “Oh, yes, you’re included.” We want it to be a place where all of us have say-so and footing and voice so that we can collectively create a culture where people can show up in the identities that they have, have what it is that they need to actively compete, to be successful, to feel a part of, and allow that to gel together for us all feeling included. 

Jasper Nighthawk [00:53 – 03:09] – This is the Seed Field Podcast, the show where Antiochians share their knowledge, tell their stories, and come together to win victories for humanity. I’m your host, Jasper Nighthawk, and today we’re joined by Stephanie Helms Pickett for a conversation about diversity, equity, and inclusion, and its role in higher education. Now, these three nouns, diversity, equity, and inclusion, especially when they get shortened down to the acronym DEI, can sometimes get attacked, especially here in 2025. And some people go so far as to say that they’re divisive, that they drive people apart, which I find a bit ironic because one of the words is literally “inclusion.” But all of this noise and argument, the fight over DEI, it starts from a position that this needs to either be attacked or defended, and people who are practicing DEI are often trying to justify it. And personally, I don’t think that a defense of an idea is always the most useful place to start out from, if you want to understand that idea. So for today’s conversation, we’re going to do our best to set aside the current political rock fights around DEI. And instead, I want to take a little time to talk about the underlying concepts and to understand why some people, like today’s guest, think that universities and everyone involved in them can benefit from being conscious and intentional about diversity, equity, and inclusion. And maybe also about some other nouns, which we’ll get to a little bit later. So Stephanie Helms Pickett really is the ideal person to explore these ideas with. She is Antioch’s Vice Chancellor for Equity, Belonging, and Culture. And this position was only created last year. So she is actually pioneering and figuring out what exactly this position will entail and how it can best serve Antioch University as we speak. As she undertakes this work, she draws on decades of experience in universities, ranging from student affairs to directing a women’s center. And before she came to Antioch, she served as Associate Vice Provost in the Office for Institutional Equity and Diversity at North Carolina State University. So I can’t wait to learn more about Stephanie’s insights into this subject. And with that, Stephanie, welcome to the Seed Field podcast. 

Stephanie [03:09 – 03:16] – Thank you so much. I’m excited to be here and discuss something that I spend a lot of time thinking about. 

Jasper [03:16 – 04:07] – That’s great. We’re so lucky to have you. And to start off, I always like to ask guests to disclose their positionality. This is especially important when it’s relevant to a topic that we’re discussing. And in our case, we’re going to be talking about diversity and the experiences of students and faculty from underrepresented groups and so much more. So I don’t think there’s a conscientious way to talk about things like this without bringing our own identities to the conversation. And I’m happy to start off by disclosing my own position. I’m white. I’m a cisgendered man. I’m queer. I’m not living with a physical disability, but I do experience anxiety and depression. And I have my whole life. I have a college degree and a master’s degree. And I have steady housing and steady income. And I would also add that I’m a parent of a two-year-old. Stephanie, as much as you’re comfortable, would you share your position? 

Stephanie [04:07 – 05:31] – I’m happy to. So I identify as Black. I’m a cisgendered woman. I have stable housing and an income. I have a college degree, a master’s degree, a doctorate degree, which I’m very fortunate that they are all paid for now, given student loan relief. So I’m a first-generation college student, and access for finances to pursue higher education was not readily available to me. So I’ve been grateful for what has existed within our federal government to assist with that. I identify as Christian. I live in the South, but I grew up in the Midwest in Chicago, and that is very much a part of my identity. I have a partner. I also caregive to my mother, who lives with us. She is 91 years old. Yeah, pretty amazing. And we have two young adults that are both outside of the house. And one is college-educated. One chose a different path, but is a new parent and finding their way of navigating being a parent in this environment. So those are many of the identities that I hold that guide how I move through this world, but in particular, this work. 

Jasper [05:31 – 05:58] – Thank you for sharing those details. And I love pulling in that you’re caregiving for a 91-year-old parent, and you’re a new grandparent yourself. These are parts of it, too. And you mentioned there that you’re a first-generation college student, and I wanted to start off asking you to retell a story that I’ve heard you tell before, but that I think can illuminate our discussion here. So can you tell us the story of meeting your freshman year roommate? 

Stephanie [05:58 – 09:53] – I will. So when I was applying to college, we did not have the internet available to us. So when you were assigned your roommate, you did a lost art form. You wrote letters back and forth to determine who was going to bring what to the room, because also at that time, they didn’t provide the refrigerator and the microwave. So we were making plans on our appliances, also our color scheme. As I shared, I grew up in Chicago on the South Side. Everywhere and everyone that I interacted with was predominantly Black. Unless you went downtown, you would often see someone that did not look like you or had a different race. My mother is the daughter of a sharecropper, grew up in rural Arkansas, and her upbringing was very different from mine. And so as I was writing to my roommate who lived in Alabama, my mother started to have conversations with me about, “You need to be careful and be thoughtful. Going away to college, although in Illinois, was five and a half hours away. It’s not going to be like Chicago.” And I said, “Oh, mom, that’s just so civil rights.” Because I’m 18, I knew everything. It’s like, “It’s not going to be like that.” That was then, this is now. So went back and forth with my roommate, never went to my college because again, first generation, my children had a different experience. They were going on college campuses when they were in fifth and sixth grade. My first time on my college that I selected was when I moved in. So my mother and I arrived to the room first, and my mother was sitting on the bed and we were just kind of settling in. And my roommate walks up, one from Alabama, her name was Michelle. And she said, “Are you Stephanie?” And I said, “Yeah, Michelle.” She said, “Yeah.” And we just kind of think we hugged, we may have shook hands, I can’t remember, but I know we started talking. And I saw in my peripheral vision, my mother got up off the bed and she extended her hand and she said, “Are you Michelle’s mother? I’m Altoria.” And the mother looked up and down at my mother and she looked, she said, “Michelle, let’s go find the RA.” And they walked out of the room and my mother gave the only look that a mother would give their child who thought they knew everything. She said no words, but I knew everything that she meant was, “I told you so.” And I was just kind of stunned because here we’d been writing one another. I assumed that she was white. I didn’t have any proof, nothing. That was just my own assumption. But I don’t believe that she assumed that I was Black. And clearly by her mother’s response, they did not know. Well, they went down the hall to Suzy, the RA who I worked in residence life for many years, so it would not have been my training. But Suzy told Michelle and her mother, “Well, you can get a room change in two weeks.” There was no, “Have you talked to them? Is there something that you will be comfortable to name that suggests an inability to live together?” So for two weeks, Michelle would kind of come in the room, change her clothes, go back out, made no interaction. And in two weeks, she moved downstairs about two floors. And another young woman named Keisha, who was from the West side of Chicago, Black woman, moved in. Keisha and I talk every Sunday. It’s been over 40 years since we’ve been really good friends. But I often wonder what may have happened had that parent or Michelle felt comfortable to say, “Let’s just try it out. We don’t know what might happen.” 

Jasper [09:54 – 10:35] – There’s a cultural narrative around what a college roommate relationship might be like. And to have that taken away from you in a moment because of race, I mean, that is like a racial macroaggression, I would say, to be like, “Oh, no, my daughter will not be living with a Black person.” If there’s a definition of racism, that’s it, right? But it also is such a failure of the concept of college as a place where you broaden your experiences and learn something. And really, you turned out all right. I feel so sad for this girl, Michelle, who it sounds like might have been open for a moment before her mother put her foot down on it. 

Stephanie [10:35 – 10:37] – Absolutely. 

Jasper [10:37 – 10:49] –  And nobody stepped in from the college. I mean, I guess that’s what I wanted to ask, really, is after all of your experience in student affairs and in this work, what could the university have done better in that instance? 

Stephanie [10:49 – 13:20] –  Absolutely. One of the things we know is when prospective students or pre-enrolled students fill out their information, we really encourage them to fill it out on their own. Sometimes we’ve had instances where parents will fill it out for them, right? We don’t want that. The parent will say, “Oh, they have an impeccable room.” Well, they do because you clean up their room. But if they get a roommate and that roommate really does clean and they find their roommate doesn’t, they’re going to have a problem. But the university has a responsibility in your time, be an undergrad or graduate, to create an environment where you can be challenged, where you can be affirmed. And kind of that notion, what is it? Lewin’s theory of challenge and support. You provide the challenge, but you provide the support to meet the challenge. And then you have another challenge. You provide the support for it. So this was a challenge, us both coming together. Her environment probably very much looked like hers, may have been segregated similarly to what the South Side of Chicago was. So there is a challenge there. The university has a responsibility through the RA to say, “Before we just automatically move to room exchange or sending you all apart, let’s sit down. Let’s try to identify some commonalities that we have. Are there any community agreements that we need to create in this room? Push us to do the work that we’ve come here to do, which is to broaden our minds to consider something different.” Now, in the end, if it ends up saying, “We’re a little bit different, too different to be able to work it out,” at least maybe we could exit and still be able to see each other, hey, in the cafeteria or walking across campus or maybe ending up in a class without it being awkward or one feeling as though their demean for something that they have no control over. None of us wake up and choose the identities that we have. We are who we are, right? And particularly as you lean into race. So there is a responsibility, even as we navigate what is happening now in terms of pushback on this, if we are in fact a place of critical thinkers, a place that is encouraging growth and to challenge and to provide evidence to support your challenge, this would have been a great opportunity. However, it was missed. 

Jasper [13:20 – 13:55] – It would have been an opportunity for growth, perhaps for both of you. But also, it was a circumstance where I think I would want to give you some support. And rather than it being like, “Oh, here’s your notice. In two weeks, you’re going to have a different roommate,” for it to be like, “Hey, we can tell that something happened here and you might be feeling all sorts of different ways about it. And can we talk? Can we make sure that you’re supported?” Because you’re also facing living away from home for the first time, starting college level classes, a million other things. And here you’re dealing with this straightforward. 

Stephanie [13:55 – 15:15] – You’re absolutely right. And for me, having support through my mother, I had that support through my mom, my family, my church, but I was a first-generation college student. So my mother didn’t necessarily know how to navigate that environment, but I had some sense of support. There are so many students, wherever they are on this trajectory, that they may not have that. So they are looking for the university to, at minimum, do what the university should do. And that was a great missed opportunity because Suzy, the RA, didn’t reach out to me. Suzy told the mom and Michelle, “You got two weeks.” There wasn’t a circle back to say, “How are you doing about this? You haven’t even unpacked all your bags. You haven’t even done your shopping at the local area store to do the things before your parents or your family leave town.” I think that is a critical invitation and an opportunity for us to continue this work and to create space to talk about what happens within this environment, what happens within this culture, what are the norms that exist, but also what are the new norms that we may desire to create? 

Jasper [15:15 – 15:39] – Yeah. I want to back up a little bit. And so we kind of have an example, I think, of where the experience of Black students starting out in college and a white student without much support might go. And so our topic here is DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion. And I wanted to ask you what your definition of these terms is. 

Stephanie [15:39 – 17:30] – We never get asked that. It is just assumed. So I appreciate that. When I think about diversity, I think about all of the different aspects of who we are, all of our various identities. Sometimes these identities are apparent to us or visible to us. And then there may be other aspects of our identity and our diversity that are not. And no one would know unless you disclose that with them. Within a college environment in particular, diversity goes beyond race. It is race, it is gender, it is gender identity, it’s gender expression. It may be faith or no faith. It may be a disability. It may be socioeconomic status. We could go on and on and on. So when we say diversity, it makes up all of those various considerations. When we think about equity, for me, that is giving whatever you have it in terms of those identities, what you need to be successful. Many years ago in one of my roles, I worked as a director of disability services. So I had a student that was a biology major, and this was before we had all the advances that we do. And in order for her to be competitive, of course, with her classes, she had to read her books. Now, many of her books, she could access through, there was an organization locally that provided translation of the textbooks into Braille. They didn’t do that for biology because there weren’t many visually impaired biology students in school at that time. So in my role as director of disability services, I would read her textbooks on tape, and then she would play the tape so that she could have it. So her equity- 

Jasper [17:30 – 17:32] – That’s such an intimate way of helping a student. 

Stephanie [17:32 – 17:49] – Listen, and poor thing, because I had to say those biology terms, which I would jack up all the time, and I would have to say, “Kelly, I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry, Kelly.” Or when you get to the end and you think you’ve recorded, and the tape did record, you had to go back over. 

Jasper [17:49 – 17:51] – Oh my gosh. 

Stephanie [17:51 – 18:08] – Yeah. But it was getting Kelly what Kelly needed to compete with everyone else. That was an equitable extension that the university did. Everyone had textbooks. If we simply gave her the textbook and just said, “Here, show up, do the work, compete,” she wasn’t going to be able to do it. 

Jasper [18:08 – 18:17] – The equity in it was us providing a way that the textbooks could be made accessible to her so that she can compete with everyone else. 

Stephanie [18:17 – 18:21] – She graduated with honors. She was an amazingly brilliant woman. 

Jasper [18:21 – 18:54] – That’s such a great example of equity because it is so obvious that she was just working at a disadvantage, and asking somebody to read textbooks when they’re blind is such a transparent equity issue. It is. I think almost anybody would be able to see that. And so then thinking about how there are gradations of this. There are people who can see the textbook. They have working eyes, but they’re dyslexic. How do you support that student? And then there’s all of these other issues that put people behind their classmates, potentially. 

Stephanie [18:54 – 21:54] – And you can plug it in. It’s just what you gave. Whatever that is, it is not providing an advantage. It is allowing them to compete at minimum to the same extent that someone else can. And so it’s not equality of giving everybody something. It is giving them what they need to compete. And if you talk to anyone that has any kind of accommodation, that is all they want. They don’t want anything else. They want to prove to themselves or to whomever that, “Yeah, I can do this. All I need is fill in the blank,” whatever that is. This idea about inclusion, it’s tricky because we want people to feel included. We want them to feel a sense of connectedness, a sense of belongingness. Where the tricky piece comes in is who gets to dictate what that is. So we don’t want to have included where I get to determine, “Oh, yes, you’re included.” We want it to be a place where all of us have say so and footing and voice so that we can collectively create a culture where people can show up in the identities that they have, have what it is that they need to actively compete, to be successful, to feel a part of, and allow that to gel together for us all feeling included. You don’t want someone else to be in charge of inclusion. I can remember one time I worked at an institution that had a doll collection. And the doll collection, every year the senior class would choose a doll. And since the early 1900s, there was a doll. Every year you could look and the doll often reflected the fashion or something that was going on in that era. And at the time I was serving over multicultural affairs and I had students of color that were like, “We need either the doll collection to stop or we need doll collection to be more representative.” Because for almost 80 years, we’ve had all white dolls. And this is a big thing when the senior class comes. So what did they do? They decided to have a doll that’s holding miniature dolls represented from all around the world, which made it even worse because that was, “We’re including, we’re including.” So what we don’t want to have is for one person, one voice, one identity, a less than marginalized identity to be able to say, “We will determine who and what is included.” This needs to be a place, an endeavor where everyone has voice to determine how inclusion happens. And we’re actively interrogating it, investigating it to see what’s left out. And how do we have that voice and representation here so that we haven’t created a monolith that is unattainable. 

Jasper [21:54 – 22:53] – I love that example of the dolls. And I really appreciate you unpacking inclusion and unpacking some of the challenges of that because I think that there could be a kind of an attempt to make a mathematical solution to problems like this where it’s like, “Oh, well, one in five students identifies as Latino, Latina, Latinx. So, you know, the music playlist, one in five songs should be a Spanish song.” It’s like, you don’t even know necessarily what type of music people listen to. That can be a caricature. And so I don’t want to get too far down these hypotheticals, but I want to draw to these other two nouns. So I notice you’re not the vice chancellor of DEI. You’re the vice chancellor of equity, belonging, and culture. And it seems to me like these values of belonging and culture might actually solve some of the problematics of this noun, inclusion. So can you tell me a little bit about belonging and culture and how those guide your work? 

Stephanie [22:53 – 23:40] – I will. And noting that equity is first. So that is the ultimate. That is what we need. When we think about belonging, I endeavor, and I hope the people that I work alongside endeavor to create, whether in classroom, external to classroom for students, our work, who we are, that we create a place where people feel seen, valued, heard, connected. We want to create a sense of belonging. And it’s tricky because that means for me, and I get pushed back sometimes from this, not necessarily where I am, but I just think in the ethos of doing this work, belonging means people having some ideas that you don’t always gel with. Okay? 

Jasper [23:40 – 23:42] – And that’s what diversity means too sometimes. 

Stephanie [23:42 – 26:46] – Come on, let’s run it, right? So I think people that are opposed to this work believe that there’s only one sign that you’re holding up. You have to believe everything here on this sign, or we’re not making a place for you. That’s not it. There are people that come to Antioch that if we have a continuum, we place ourselves different places there. Am I creating an environment that wherever you find yourself on the trajectory, that you find that you are treated fairly, that you are valued, that we want to hear your differing thought. In the end, I may not rock with you all the way, but I want you to feel that you had a place to share it and that I listened to you and that I’m not ostracizing you for whatever it is. That’s not always a popular opinion. Everything is not always canceled. And some of those things that aren’t canceled exist within people and their thoughts within the university. I want you to feel a sense of belonging there. And if we are in a university and we’re in community with one another, we can call each other in when we are having that disagreement through discourse, through conversation, we may have to put it down, leave. Ultimately, that becomes a part of our culture. We can’t necessarily have one without the other, and they are always impacting each other. And we should always be considering the extent to which we may have some students in one discipline that feel like, “Oh, yeah, I feel a deep sense of belonging and connectedness, and I see myself valued here.” We may have another program that says, “We need to do a little bit of work because maybe there are some people that hold particular identities or experiences where they’re moving right along and other people that aren’t having that shared experience.” So we need to be curious about that. And I believe that one of my roles in concert with other folk here at our institution is to constantly be looking at, are we having similar or differing outcomes for people, whether they’re a student, staff, or faculty member? And then if we notice that, what are the actions that we can take for resolution? What we do in belonging, what we do in developing a culture that is responsive to that is mattering. And mattering is a human emotional need that we have. Why shouldn’t we expect it? If we expect it when we’re in our home environment or our community, we should have that same expectation, and we should be responsive to it within our university community. And because of that, I reject that DEI doesn’t matter, or DEI is just the representation of training that’s indoctrinating someone or filling a quota. That is not what DEI is, nor has it ever been. It is creating affirmation and mattering for everyone that elects to be a part of this space, be it students, staff, or faculty. 

Jasper [26:46 – 27:57] – Yeah, I like that. There’s so much to unpack in what you just said. And one thing that came up when you were talking about belonging and mattering and this, the culture, I mean, these nouns could kind of become a soup, but the idea that people feel like their point of view is valued, and not even their point of view, just themselves. And if you’re not there, you’re missed. And that feeling is, I mean, it’s hard to create. I tip my cap for you for even being the person pushing for that. When I’m with real friends, I’m not holding onto my ideas for dear life. I like for them to be challenged. And that’s, I think, what education is ultimately about is, here’s the set of ideas that I came in when I’m 18, or when I’m 40 and going back for a degree, or whatever age you are. Here’s my ideas. Now I’m going to challenge them. I’m actually paying a lot of money and spending a lot of my time to try to grow myself intellectually. And only when you feel comfortable enough and like you belong enough, can you really loosen up to share your deepest ideas and to maybe grow them or shift course. 

Stephanie [27:57 – 28:22] – I love that. And we had an example of that even recently. We’ve been doing a social justice summit. As I move through many spaces in my time at Antioch, inevitably in a meeting, if we are trying to determine how we should move, what voice we should have as an institution, someone would always say, “But we’re a social justice institution.” And we are. This is our founding. 

Jasper [28:22 – 28:23] – It’s part of our mission statement. 

Stephanie [28:23 – 29:21] – It’s part of our mission statement. But what does it mean in 2025 compared to 1852? What does it mean in 2025 even compared to 2020? And I don’t know that all of us collectively have enough opportunities to just sit with, “What does that mean? And how does it show up?” The way we get the victory for humanity is that we’ve got to sit with the difficult questions and be called in. When we have those difficult interactions here, we’re going to see each other again. We’re going to show up in Zooms. We’re going to be on committees with each other. We’re in classes with one another. So we’ve got to wrestle with it and be able to listen and give voice and come to a place where we can have some agreement knowing that it’s in the best for our institution and ultimately the best for our students that sacrifice so much to be a part of this community. 

Jasper [29:21 – 29:58] – Yeah. I love the way you put that. And I was curious, I mean, you mentioned this social justice summit that you recently had this like on two separate days, all these speakers and sessions where students, faculty, and staff could join together and reflect. And I know that you’re also running a multi-part racial equity summit for faculty and staff. And I wanted to ask what you hope to achieve with these different events and how you think about creating an impact that will actually move the needle on making our institution more equitable and building our culture. 

Stephanie [29:58 – 32:02] – I start from the place that the ARTF, which is our anti-racist task force, actually started the work to have some racial equity professional development prior to my arrival. So it was underway. We wanted a place for faculty and staff to really have shared learning, be able to be vulnerable in terms of our knowledge. Very often we are the experts on whatever we’re hired to do, right? And no disagreement with that, but there’s always room for us to learn and to grow. Our climate data from our surveys show that we have space to refine our skills, our knowledge, our competencies on concepts such as race and identity, even at being an institution like Antioch. So this was our first attempt to have a shared learning experience within community. So we’re having this experience that will run through June. So it’s not just you come in your workshop and you’re done. The questions that we are being asked, the information that is being shared is historical and foundational to the concept of race, which, you know, as we learned that it’s not necessarily as real as we have been taught to believe that it is a construct that we ultimately have to work on the consequence of that, which is racism. Ultimately, our hope is that we will not only do the easy part, which is sometimes take these ideals and put them into our personal work, our Rotary Club, our sorority, our church. Those are great places, but how do we take what we’re learning to impact Antioch in our classes, in our work, so that we can look through things with a more equitable lens and be able to operate through our procedures and our policies and our practices in a way that allows us to live out that mission even more? 

Jasper [32:02 – 32:41] – I so appreciate you making that space in our university to have these conversations and to learn together and to reflect and try and grow. We’re almost out of time, but as a closing question, I wanted to ask if you have any advice for folks who might be listening to this and they want to advocate and prioritize diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, culture in their classrooms or their students or out in the world, as you say, in their groups. But our society today, there’s a lot of hostility to this work and to these values. How do we kind of bring this mindset that you’ve been describing out into the world? 

Stephanie [32:41 – 33:54] – I don’t want folks to be discouraged. I want us to calm our nervous systems and not be on high alert. I have the blessing of having someone that’s 91 years old that lives in my house that has been through many waves and iterations of resistance. And yet she has chosen joy over and over and over again. She’s chosen to be in community. She’s chosen to help other people, whether that is giving an encouraging word or sending them a cheesecake or calling them on the phone and just having a conversation. So I want us to lean into community as much as we can. I want us to remain engaged as you have the capacity to do. And we may have to do some rotations of that. If this is not a week for you because you are feeling a lot of different responses to resistance, then we need to lean into someone else and be able to do that. And we’re going to have to ebb and flow it for right now. And I think we’re going to have to make some decisions as to what we will continue to support and what are the things that are not serving us and we need to release them. 

Jasper [33:54 – 34:00] – That’s a beautiful place to leave this, Stephanie. Thank you so much for sharing your time and your knowledge and wisdom here today. 

Stephanie [34:00 – 34:02] – Thank you. Let’s be well. 

Jasper [34:02 – 35:53] – You can learn more about Stephanie’s work at Antioch on the webpage for the Office of Equity, Belonging and Culture. We’re going to link to that in our show notes. And we’ll also link there to the interview that I mentioned where I spoke with Stephanie a year ago, right when she was starting at Antioch. We covered different ground in that interview, so that might be of interest. And I want to let you know that right as we were about to put this episode out, Stephanie published an academic paper centered around the subject we’ve been talking about here. That paper, which she wrote with two co-authors, is called “Say It Loud, Rhythms of Resistance in a Climate of Compliance, Exploring the Lived Experiences of Identity-Based Student Center Staff Amid an Anti-Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Legislative Climate.” It came out in the Journal of College and Character. We’ll link to that too. We post these show notes on our website, theseedfield.org, where you can also find full episode transcripts, prior episodes, and more. The Seedfield Podcast is produced by Antioch University. Our editor is Nastasia Green. I’m your host, Jasper Nighthawk. Jen Mont is our web content coordinator. Stefanie Paredes, Lauren Arianzale, Dani LaPointe, and Liza Wisner are our work-study assistants. We received additional production help from Karen Hamilton, Melinda Garland, and Laurien Alexandre. Thank you for spending your time with us today. That’s it for this episode. We hope to see you next time. And don’t forget to plant a seed, sow a cause, and win a victory for humanity. From Antioch University, this has been the Seed Field Podcast.